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 Peru, Parandra glabra
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dpotanin
Member Purpuricenus

Russia
134 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2013 :  22:56:32  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote

211.21 KB

Parandra glabra?
This specimen from Pampa Hermosa, Peru
Thank you in advance!

Edited by - Capitaine on 27/01/2016 18:04:37

Capitaine
Scientific Collaborator

France
1152 Posts

Posted - 26/03/2015 :  18:13:48  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
I think so; Hesperandra glabra (DeGeer, 1774)

Claude
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africaone
Member Purpuricenus

Belgium
346 Posts

Posted - 27/03/2015 :  11:18:15  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
may be to put in Parandrinae ?

s'il n'y pas de solution c'est qu'il n'y a pas de problème ! akuna matata ....
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Francesco
Forum Admin

Luxembourg
7698 Posts

Posted - 27/03/2015 :  13:36:57  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit Francesco's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Parandrini appears to be a specialised tribe of Prioninae under all examined morphological characters (hind wings, short antennae, developed mandibles, loss of the elytral puncturing, etc.)
The only supposed primitive character are the 5-jointed tarsi, but this feature has been proved as an adaptation to the scavenger behaviour... moreover, it is present in not related Prionini, such as Dorysthenes.
Since no evidence of paraphyly with other Prioninae has never been proved, Parandrini must be considered as belonging to this subfamily.
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africaone
Member Purpuricenus

Belgium
346 Posts

Posted - 27/03/2015 :  14:07:15  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Francesco

Parandrini appears to be a specialised tribe of Prioninae under all examined morphological characters (hind wings, short antennae, developed mandibles, loss of the elytral puncturing, etc.)
The only supposed primitive character are the 5-jointed tarsi, but this feature has been proved as an adaptation to the scavenger behaviour... moreover, it is present in not related Prionini, such as Dorysthenes.
Since no evidence of paraphyly with other Prioninae has never been proved, Parandrini must be considered as belonging to this subfamily.
does exist a publication with this ?
what do you mean by loss of elytral puncturing ? (There is punctuation in Parandrinae ...)

s'il n'y pas de solution c'est qu'il n'y a pas de problème ! akuna matata ....
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dryobius
Member Rosenbergia

USA
1254 Posts

Posted - 27/03/2015 :  19:06:53  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
I would like to know what characters you see in this photograph that allows you to identify this to species level?
There are many similar species in South America. I agree that "glabra" is one of the most common, but still, I find these very challenging even when I have one under a lens.

If this species is correctly identified the current accepted name is Parandra (s. str.) glabra (Degeer, 1774).
Refer to Titan, because it has kept up with the latest nomenclature on this tribe / subfamily.
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Francesco
Forum Admin

Luxembourg
7698 Posts

Posted - 27/03/2015 :  19:42:57  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit Francesco's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by africaone

does exist a publication with this ?
what do you mean by loss of elytral puncturing ? (There is punctuation in Parandrinae ...)
The old monographs about Prioninae (i.e. Lameere) proposed this systematics, but very recent monographs as well (i.e. Svacha, from whom I received several times a large parts of their books) confirm the same structure.
Actually, it would be interesting to know who, and on what reasons, considered this group as a distinct subfamily...

Elytral puncturing... most primitive Prioninae (Anacolini, Aegosomatini) show the primitive 9 (12? I do not remember) regular series of points, which become irregular or even disappear in the most specialised species. Most Parandra do not show them, if I remember well...
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africaone
Member Purpuricenus

Belgium
346 Posts

Posted - 27/03/2015 :  22:41:24  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
who ? Santos-Silva, Adlbauer, Heffern, ....
taxonomic level of Lameere seemed not exactly the same as actual ones (as for many other groups and authors).

s'il n'y pas de solution c'est qu'il n'y a pas de problème ! akuna matata ....
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Francesco
Forum Admin

Luxembourg
7698 Posts

Posted - 29/03/2015 :  18:29:58  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit Francesco's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by africaone

who ? Santos-Silva, Adlbauer, Heffern, ....
Yes, I know, but for what reasons they have begun to change this systematics?
I have all papers of the entomologists you mentioned, but none of them affronted this topic.

If I read Villiers (1978, Faune de France), I find:
"Les Parandrinae... semblent bien être la sous-famille plus primitive"

Voilà... the old wrong idea that Cerambycoidea evolved from Cucujdae through taxa, such as Parandra and Spondylis (and Protospondylis).

Cerambycoidea are patently related to Chysomeloidea with obvious similar form, such as Disteniidae and Lepturinae!
(Cf. Saalas, 1936; Müller, 1949-1953; Cherepanov; 1988; Vitali, 2006)

In fact, according to Svácha and Lawrence:
Parandrinae may be modified prionines.
Pentamerous adult tarsus with small remains of ventral pads, short antennae, and the peculiar adult habitus are almost certainly secondary.
Penteado-Dias (1984) considered the nerve cord of Parandrinae (an unidentified species of Parandrini) as the most primitive cerambycid, but her own figures suggest that all proposed plesiomorphies occur also in some other species and that the studied parandrine has at least one apomorphy (third abdominal ganglion moved to posterior metathorax) not present in some species of other subfamilies (which may have that ganglion in anterior abdomen); moreover, only few prionines were studied.
Larvae represent a derived prionine type; they are rather uniform and may be recognized from Prioninae by the extremely long cordate labrum or widespread body asperities. They apparently share some apomorphies (reduced broadly separate prothoracic coxosternal halves, enlarged abdominal segment 9 fused with 10) with some prionines, but monophyly of those prionines has not been studied.


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africaone
Member Purpuricenus

Belgium
346 Posts

Posted - 29/03/2015 :  22:35:01  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the info Francesco, very interesting.
of course completely out of my competence but I have difficult to imagine Parandrini submitted to Prioninae .. antennas, legs, head, so different !

s'il n'y pas de solution c'est qu'il n'y a pas de problème ! akuna matata ....
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Francesco
Forum Admin

Luxembourg
7698 Posts

Posted - 30/03/2015 :  12:52:43  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit Francesco's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Cantharocnemis or some Notophysis do not look so different...
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africaone
Member Purpuricenus

Belgium
346 Posts

Posted - 30/03/2015 :  13:51:19  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Francesco

Cantharocnemis or some Notophysis do not look so different...
pure (visual) convergence ... and with help of some imagination ... may be !

s'il n'y pas de solution c'est qu'il n'y a pas de problème ! akuna matata ....

Edited by - africaone on 30/03/2015 13:52:52
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