| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Dominique
Member Purpuricenus
France
387 Posts |
 Posted - 30/06/2013 : 09:10:28
|
165.1 KB
Hello !
This pair of Agapanthia comes from Gomaran (Geganush, Syunik Prov, 950 m) in southern Armenia.
The size is unusual (20-21 mm), much larger than the other specimens captured in the region.
I think the sp could be walteri, maybe lederi, and probably something else ... |
|
|
Max
Member Rosalia
Russia
709 Posts |
Posted - 30/06/2013 : 19:41:36
|
| It is simply A. dahli I think. |
 |
|
|
Dominique
Member Purpuricenus
France
387 Posts |
Posted - 30/06/2013 : 20:18:13
|
| Yes, it's very similar ... but dahli is not given from Armenia, neither in Löbl & Smetana vol. 6 (i.e. G. Sama) nor in additions and corrections of Miroshnikov (2011) and Danilevsky (2012). |
|
|
|
Francesco
Forum Admin
Luxembourg
9378 Posts |
Posted - 30/06/2013 : 21:11:12
|
Le seul Epoptes possible est A. walteri.
Elle devrait avoir la base des élytres granulée (il me semble comme-ça) et la pubescence élevée qui surpasse la moitié des élytres en arrière.
Ça passe?
Tandis que... la taille est en effets un peu avantageuse (Plavilstshikov donnait jusqu'à 19,5 mm) et la couleur des antennes me semble un peu étrange. |
|
|
|
Max
Member Rosalia
Russia
709 Posts |
Posted - 30/06/2013 : 21:34:08
|
Really, the differences between dahli and walteri are not so conspicuous... And A. dahli was given early from Transcaucasia.
If to named this beetle as walteri.. Ok. But we are will get little by it.
There is reasoning of M. Danilevsky about similar situation:
"New synonym is proposed by A. Shapovalov (200): Agapanthia persica Semenov, 1893 = A. transcaspica Pic, 1900 without study of the type materials and without careful study of Iranian populations.
Most probably corresponding populations from Iran and Kopet-Dag are in same relations as A. dahli and A. walteri: south populations are larger, brighter, with denser elytral pubescence, so A. persica (see “Gallery” in www.cerambycidae.net) and A. transcaspica could be regarded as subspecies." |
|
|
|
Dominique
Member Purpuricenus
France
387 Posts |
Posted - 30/06/2013 : 23:20:26
|
Maybe it can help : I have found in an old paper of Reitter (Ueber die bekannten und einige neue palaearctische Agapanthia-Arten) a key of some sp of Agapanthia.
Two items of this key concern A. walteri and A. dahli, but they are in German, and I'm unable to translate them into English or French :
16'' Flügeldecken mit sehr großem, stark fleckig gestelltem, gelbem Toment, das am Grunde auf grösseren, fein punktulirten, ebenen Stellen steht, Basis stark gekörnt. Flügeldecken lang, beim Männchen und Weibchen parallel. Im übrigen der nächsten Art sehr ähnlich. Long.: 17 mm. Armenien: Erzerum .. Kleinasien: Mardin.... Walteri n. sp.
16' Flügeldecken mit dichtem, fleckig gestelltem, bald mehr, bald weniger feinem gelben oder gelblichen Toment, das auf den fein punktulirten schmalen Zwischenräumen der Punkte sich befindet. Nur die Basis stärker, etwas raspelartig punktirt. Flugeldecken von mässiger Länge, beim Weibchen parallel, beim Männchen zur Spitze leicht verschmälert.- Mittel und Südeuropa, Kaukasus; dann angeblich auch in Kleinasien und Syrien...... Dahli Richter. |
Edited by - Dominique on 30/06/2013 23:30:41 |
|
|
|
Francesco
Forum Admin
Luxembourg
9378 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2013 : 15:28:06
|
Oui... c'est la même clé de Plavilstshikov: les caractères sont les mêmes que je t'ai donnés.
In all cases I agree with Max: I do not see walteri in these specimens, but the Agapanthia of the group dahli - as those other groups - are a problem still not solved.
For example, Mr. Sama, whom you mentioned, very simplistic described dahli malmerendii from Italy.
The difference is the mottled (rather than uniform) elytral pattern... a claim quite difficult to sustain since forms with mottled pattern are also present in Moravia (here), Slovakia (here), and even in Spain and Portugal (here), together with typical ones.
Moreover, until 1981, dahli was commonly described (Ganglbauer, Plavilstshikov, Reitter, Picard, Villiers, etc..) just like a "species with mottled pattern" ... as this specimen from Southern Germany:
Agapanthia dahli in Reitter, 1912, Tab. 139 Fig. 13
Afterwards, this author claimed that malmerendii and sicula belong to a species separated from dahli.
This strange idea is even more difficult to sustain, since it means that the Italian forms have evolved separately as a result of a long period of isolation, while many exchanges across the Adriatic are well know for Agapanthia (e.g. maculicornis, cynarae) and other groups until only 12,000 years ago.
Strangely, these exchanges would not even track in both current populations ... in other words, it seems that, for some obscure reasons, the Balkan dahli and the Italian malmerendii were the only Agapanthia-species that refused to overpass the Adriatic when it was dried up.
Finally, Sama sustained that malmerendii is also present in Spain, against all biogeographical logic... 
Il faut s'arrêter de deconner! ... autrement tes exemplaires seront identifiés comme A. sicula malmerendii! |
|
|
|
Dominique
Member Purpuricenus
France
387 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2013 : 17:06:15
|
sicula malmerendii, ah, je n'y avais pas pensé !
Bon, tout cela dépasse largement le niveau auquel je traite habituellement ce genre de choses. Sauf erreur flagrante, je me contente en tant qu'amateur de suivre les indications des publications de référence. Je sais bien que ça peut aboutir à des erreurs, mais pas toujours, heureusement ! Je t'avoue cependant que souvent, les critères qui apparaissent dans certaines clés me laissent rêveur, et bien légers pour définir une ssp !
Ce que je vois, c'est que le groupe dahli est complexe, et, comme le dit Max, que les différences entre les deux espèces ne sont pas si visibles que ça (sauf si on a les sp correspondantes fiablement déterminées en collection de référence, ce qui n'est pas mon cas pour walteri). |
Edited by - Dominique on 01/07/2013 17:10:35 |
|
|
|
znort
Member Purpuricenus
China
479 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2013 : 14:33:12
|
Dominique, si tu regardes les dahli et walteri en photo sur le site de rezjek tu verras une différence au niveau du pronotum.
Je ne sais pas ce que cela vaut mais c'est assez visible je trouve. |
Chinese Cerambycidae |
|
|
|
Dominique
Member Purpuricenus
France
387 Posts |
Posted - 20/07/2013 : 17:06:11
|
Aux dires de Denis Kasatkine, il est probable que s'il s'agit bien de dahli, il s'agit de la nouvelle ssp Agapanthia dahli rubenyani décrite par Lazarev il y a trois mois, provenant exactement du même endroit.
Pour les amateurs, j'ai mis le pdf de l'article ici. |
|
|
|
Francesco
Forum Admin
Luxembourg
9378 Posts |
Posted - 20/07/2013 : 20:24:55
|
Nickel! |
|
|
|
Francesco
Forum Admin
Luxembourg
9378 Posts |
Posted - 21/07/2013 : 10:10:20
|
This link gave many problems, so I have integrated this paper in our Library here.
Notice that A. walteri, persica, muellneri and other species are considered as ssp. of dahli!
Well, the reordering of this group has begun. I hope that non-senses like A. malmerendii or malmerendii sicula will be finally corrected. |
|
|
|
Dominique
Member Purpuricenus
France
387 Posts |
Posted - 21/07/2013 : 10:24:20
|
| Yes, the french internet provider Free had lots of problems these last days ... |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Armenia, Agapanthia: dahli rubenyani
