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 Cerambycidae Lamiinae
 Tragocephalini
 Zambia: Tragocephala pretiosa
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L. Hart
Member Purpuricenus

United Kingdom
425 Posts

Posted - 29/08/2019 :  13:45:24  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit L. Hart's Homepage  Reply with Quote


From Zambia Approx 20/21 mm
Are both same species, T. mixta or pretiosa??

Edited by - Xavier on 07/09/2019 10:46:30

Capitaine
Scientific Collaborator

France
1741 Posts

Posted - 30/08/2019 :  11:53:44  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Hintz described this species as pretiosia in 1909, then Breuning described it under the name mixta in 1934.

Claude
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Jérôme Sudre
Member Rosenbergia

France
1660 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2019 :  21:52:47  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Hintz described this species as pretiosia in 1909, then Breuning described it under the name mixta in 1934.

Yes but pretiosa has been rehabilitated (by us or others without any justification? In any case in what I found I may have forgotten references in my research) it is considered by Breuning as a variety of nobilis, but nobilis presents a rather collected habitus whereas pretiosa is rather elongated!
Moreover mixta presents rather thick anterior articles unlike pretiosa or they are rather elongated!
I should point out that I didn't see any of the typus!!! These are only personal observations.
As for mixta and well it is complicated as our contemporaries would say! I don't know the typical form of mixta on the other hand the form kulzeri is very close to formosa at least by its morphology, the form minettii (which is the one in the picture here) is more collected! Moreover, the third antenomerre on pretiosa is much longer than the fourth (as in nobilis) while on mixta it is only a little longer!
I even wonder if the kulzeri form for the mixta species and the minettii form for the same species belong to the same species
It is quite possible that kulzeri is a form of pretiosa and minettii is a form of mixta and therefore, mixta and formosa are two different species!
In short, as you can see, I am in a dead end and in the end I mourn and tell myself that I am alone on Africa and that it would be nice if other people would look into this type of problem because I think it is a lot of work and search for typus (among the Tragocephala there are really many!) and would be the most suitable to restore a little order in this group...... Here is my little contribution that doesn't lead to much in the end.
So, I'll stick to T mixta m minettii for this specimen.

Edited by - Jérôme Sudre on 02/09/2019 21:54:16
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L. Hart
Member Purpuricenus

United Kingdom
425 Posts

Posted - 03/09/2019 :  14:52:46  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit L. Hart's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Bonjour Jérôme, je conviens qu’il reste encore beaucoup de travail à faire avec ce groupe de Tragocephala. J'en ai plusieurs que je ne peux pas identifier et je suis sûr que beaucoup de collectionneurs ont le même problème. Merci donc d'avoir pris le temps d'expliquer. À propos, diriez-vous que les deux spécimens ont la même forme?
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Xavier
Scientific Collaborator

France
11453 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2019 :  10:45:54  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Pour résumer, ce serait un Tragocephala pretiosa Hintz, 1909 = Tragocephala mixta m. minettii Teocchi, 1992 .
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Jérôme Sudre
Member Rosenbergia

France
1660 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2019 :  11:03:56  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Pour moi ils m'ont l'air d'être les même (d'après la photo), prétiosa est plus allongé (à mes yeux) et à les antennes plus fines (à mes yeux) mais je n'ai vu aucun des types de ces deux portes noms
Il faudrait (1 de plus) que je me penche dessus et que je puisse vivre 200 ans de plus .... Il y a tellement de choses sur lesquelles il me faudrait me pencher (ou d'autres d'ailleurs ...)
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Xavier
Scientific Collaborator

France
11453 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2019 :  11:49:39  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
...je te comprends Jérôme, 200 ans de rab', ça ne serait pas du luxe pour moi aussi.
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Capitaine
Scientific Collaborator

France
1741 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2019 :  12:01:35  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Au rythme ou nous allons dans les dégradations, il ne restera plus grand chose à étudier dans 200 ans !!

Claude
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Xavier
Scientific Collaborator

France
11453 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2019 :  12:58:13  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Oui, certes, mais je crois qu'on parlait plutôt des 35 000 espèces déjà décrites, et du temps que que cela nécessite pour commencer à y comprendre quelque chose.
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Capitaine
Scientific Collaborator

France
1741 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2019 :  18:27:02  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Bien compris viens-tu à Juvisy ?

Claude
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L. Hart
Member Purpuricenus

United Kingdom
425 Posts

Posted - 13/09/2019 :  13:42:23  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit L. Hart's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Merci tout le monde
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